Discussion: Religion

I stumbled across this site the other day (looking up Doc Samson of all people). It's an extremely detailed look at the religions of various superheroes, whether they're stated outright or simply implied (Samson's Jewish, by the way, if anyone cares). I had been meaning to post a discussion of what people think Tony's religion might be, and I figured this was as good an excuse as any to actually do it.

On the site, it seems that the majority of the fandom holds that Tony is atheist, while the maintainers of the site themselves hold that he's a “futurist; technologist; mostly secular.” So let's go from there.

I'll admit, I'm not a very smart person, so I'm not sure on the actual use of the word “futurist.” The Oxford English Dictionary (which my school evidently pays for me to use for the analysis of comic books rather than research papers) defines a futurist as someone who either: “believes that the Scripture prophecies, esp. those in the Book of Revelation, are still to be fulfilled in the future” or “one who has regard to or studies the future; a believer in human progress.” Hmm...I'm assuming Tony's more likely to lean towards the second one when defining himself. Oh, and there's something about an Italian art movement, but I think I can probably toss that one out when we're talking about Stark (unless he's trying to learn up for Steve's inevitable return). I feel like I'm missing on some philosophical side of this however, so if someone would be kind enough to fill me in, I'd love you forever :D I love learning <3

Anyway, I'd agree that Tony is mostly secular. I would not, however, call him an atheist. And here, in my humble opinion, is why:

1. His father. Now, Howard Stark comes off as a skeptic to me, the kind of guy who needs proof before he decides anything for certain. He's shown telling tiny Tony that if God exists, He'll have left a message for them in the numbers. It seems to me that Tony would have a similar approach to life in general, not only because he's scientific-minded, but also because he would probably do anything he could to gain approval from his ever disapproving father (something I've touched on before), including trying to figure out how π = God. Also of note: As far as I know, we're never given any hint of what religion Maria Stark followed. While I think we can say Howard influenced Tony's professional life, I think it could be argued that Maria probably had more of an influence on his personal life.
   


2. He's seen praying and makes reference to prayer on a number of occasions. He's seen praying at Rumiko's casket and before he (we assume) pulled the plug on Happy. He makes reference to praying that everything would work out okay for Bruce Banner when they shot him up into space (though he knew Hulky had landed on the wrong planet). He could all be going through the motions, and I think he certain does do that when it comes to things like social events (the Stark reputation anyone?), but I don't think he would bother faking it with something like this.
   


3. Alcoholics Anonymous. A major part of AA is giving yourself up to a Higher Power and believing that only this Power can restore a your sanity. Now, with that said, there are of course secular AA groups out there, and really, that Higher Power can be whatever you really want it to be, not necessarily God, so long as it's motivation enough to get you clean, so this point is a bit weaker than the others. But, Tony is shown going to AA meetings with Carol Danvers and we've meet his sponsor (Henry Hellrung, for anyone that missed that).


4. He's lived and worked with Thor and Ares. Now, I'm not saying that makes him a believer – after all, didn't he keep a hair of Thor's to DNA test if he was actually a god (which would later lead to Clone-Thor)? I'm just saying, living and employing a god would at the very least make you open to the idea.


5. Tony has been to Hell. Liek srsly yo. Even met his dad there. Mind you, Tony's seen a lot of weird things in his life, but I'm pretty sure that might have traumatized him just a little bit. Fear of God kind of traumatize? Hard to say.

As said, the majority of fans quoted on the site believe that he's atheist, basing this off of the Infinity Crusade limited series during which he tells the Goddess that he puts his faith in science. To me, this means he prefers to have something material to hold onto, but doesn't mean he doesn't believe in something greater (otherwise, why would be bother praying?) Plus there's the fact that this 'Goddess' had just kidnapped a bunch of his friends so they would go make holy war. He was probably not the most open person at the time.

So, I know it's a bit risky to do any sort of religious discussion, but I'm interested in seeing what you all think.

Please comment here or here

On Control, or lack there of

We all know Tony is a control freak. But here's a question: Exactly how much control does he really have?

Howard Stark, bless his crazy little head, was a very demanding father, to say the least. He wanted his son to follow in his footsteps, something Tony wanted nothing of. Tony was plenty happy staying indoors, lost in books and computer parts. Howard didn't seem to think this was fitting of his son, so he sent him off to boarding school to learn some discipline. Rather than beating it out of his son himself, Howard let the boys at school do it for him.

So, once Tony gets out of school, out of M.I.T., what does he do? Immediately starts making weapons for daddy. And when daddy (and mommy, of course) die a couple years later, he steps right up to take over the company.

Now, Tony's said that he didn't enjoy making weapons, but it paid the bills. However, is seems like he didn't have much choice in the matter. Stark was built as a munitions company and it will always be as such. Even within recent (comic) years, he's been trying to steer Stark International away from military contracts with no avail. While he is CEO, it seems he has no real say in the direction his company takes. In the Extremis arc, we see that his board of directors don't even want him as CEO any longer because of his time spent out of the board room. The only reason he stays is because he knows that if he steps down, his name will be put back on the side of bombs.

As Secretary of Defense, he opened himself up to manipulation via political agenda -- rather ironic considering the fact that he only wanted the job in the first place so he could control the use of his patented technology. During the Avengers: Disassemble prologue, it's brought to light that Howard Stark created a robot that would destroy Manhattan in case of World War III. Tony's first reaction is to call in the rest of the Avengers to help deal with it. While he is, technically the most powerful man in the room, the various government officials there coerce him into leaving his teammates out of it saying that it's for the great good that news of the robot doesn't get out. And Tony goes along with it, against his best judgment, leading to some rather upset teammates when the plan eventually backfires.

And then there have been the times when Tony, literally, has lost control of himself; when outside forces have taken advantage of his mind in some way, shape, or form. From Immortus to the Scarlet Witch to Yinsen's son, he's been subject mind control a number of times. One can only imagine how traumatic that might be for a person and no doubt these instances still linger with Tony. We know that in a case where the armor, not even Tony himself, was controlled by an outside force and used to kill, it led to Tony drowning himself in liquor.

Speaking of which, there is also the fact that Tony is an addict. Being addicted to something is, by its very definition, to be dependent on something, so much so that you do not have control over your urges – in Tony's case, drink. Tony spent years of his life pickling his brain in booze, and he didn't even realize it. Just like another form of mind control, it snuck up on him, forced him to build his life around getting that next drink.

So how much control does Tony actually have? Not a whole lot.

He's a control freak because he has no control. He can't manage his own life, so he tries to micromanage the lives of the people around him. He tried to control the fallout against the metahumans by leading the pro-reg cause. He tried to control the enforcement of the SHRA by becoming Director of S.H.I.E.L.D. But even then, he doesn't really have any power – the Registration Act is subject to the whims of the people and while S.H.I.E.L.D. is supposed to be an international organization, it is still very much subject to the American government. So while he may believe he's the man in charge, he's really just still a pawn, and that's where the problem lies. The moment he realizes that he's not in control is the moment things are going to start coming down around him.

Please comment here or here

Discussion: Post Secret Invasion

I posted something a bit like this on cap_ironman not too long ago, but I wanted to start a discussion more towards the future of the Iron Man storyline.

So, if for some reason you haven't heard, the Iron Man movie comes out on DVD today. Marvel's website has been promoting it for about two weeks now, releasing articles and exclusive digital comics (this week, an Iron Man comic is going to be put up in the archive everyday, finishing off vol. 3). Now, I can understand the digital comics, as well as the abundance of text they've put up, but I have to say releasing a psychological profile telling us how crazy the main character is or a fake news story detailing that his company might be going under is a very odd way to promote a movie.

It is, however, a very good way to promote the next big story arc, World's Most Wanted, in the Invincible Iron Man title. Matt Fraction's been saying for a while now that he's going to bring Tony to his knees. General fan reaction seems to be "About damn time!"

So, let's take a look at some of the more unsubtle foreshadowing these two pieces have to offer. Personally, the more interesting one is the Psych Ward article:

...What has not been formerly diagnosed on Axis I, but in the opinion of the writer should be, is major depressive disorder.

Well no sh*t.

As such, it is the recommendation of staff that the client be closely monitored, with weekly physical exams, until such time as conclusive data on the health benefits of Extremis can be generated....

...While he has not had a drink in some time, he also has not attended any meetings because, he claims, he's "too busy." The writer has informed the client that this is the claim of many who lose touch with the program and thus relapse...

...Recommendations that he take a leave have not been accepted.

Now, it's been said that Tony won't have use of the Extremis after Secret Invasion (which is disappointing), so we can check one of those off the list. Now for the falling the wagon bit...

As a side note, I kind of wanted Doc Samson to turn out to be the Red Hulk only so Tony could say that his last therapist went on a rampage and killed Abomination. That would have been awesome.

But in the wake of a troubled economy and coupled with the recent death of Happy Hogan and the further injury of executive Pepper Potts and the global malfunction of their technology, Stark Enterprises is facing a series of misfortunes that, if continued, could result in a total financial collapse – one that even the Invincible Iron Man can not save them from.

So this one pretty much has a big red arrow one it saying "LOOK FOR ME IN ISSUE #8!!!" Not only does it have the title of the freakin comic in it, but it's also a well worn path that Tony (or rather, his writers) have taken many times before. I'll admit, if the big thing that ends up crushing Tony is another problem with his company, I'll be disappointed. I'd much rather see Tony's break down be ramifications from all the crap that's happened since Civil War than his company imploding again.

Also, I totally just realized: right now in Tony's life there is a Stane that may or may not lead to the collapse of Stark Industries, causing Tony to go back to the bottle. Good lord.

Now, in celebration of...movie release? New site? Having Readers? Tony's inevitable break down? Let's have a little discussion of where we all think the future of the IIM series is going. How will it happen? What will happen? And, an odd question, what do you hope will happen?

Personally? I think Tony's going to be blamed for the Starktech Network failure that happened during Secret Invasion, leading to Stark Industries/Enterprises/International/Circuits Maximus crashing.

What I would like to see?

Big, public breakdown. Proof Tony Stark has a heart.